which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Pretty self-explanatory

WHAT LP is MORE of a CLUNKER???

WHEN I WAS CRUEL
6
35%
THE RIVER IN REVERSE
11
65%
 
Total votes: 17

Harry Lime
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Post by Harry Lime »

Arbogast wrote:BA...

I, for one, wholly approve of (occasionally) polling people on "worst"s in regard to EC, or any artist. A while back I'd asked the Wiki crew to name his three worst songs, and I got some really indignant responses. My attitude has always been that, yes, this is a fan's site and we're all here because we love EC. However, that doesn't preclude discussing the good and the bad, critiquing and analyzing from ALL directions. It gets boring, and is unedifying, to read rave after rave about everything. At a certain point people go beyond being fans to being "marks," and that's intellectually bankrupt. And dull as hell.

With that being said: I'm shocked that you view WIWC as a not-so-good album; I actually think it's a highlight of the past 25 years. Tons of great tunes (WIWC, Alibi, My Little Blue Window, Daddy Can I Turn This, Dissolve, and oh my God, Episode of Blonde). River in Reverse made much less of an impression on me; seems like more of a novelty than anything else.

Weakest albums IMO: Goodbye Cruel World, Momofuku, Look Now. Mighty Like a Rose, Spike
This is a great point, Arbogast, and the reason why I like this board so much. It's OK to talk about stuff we don't like as well as stuff we love. Elvis is by far my favorite artist, but there are albums I just don't play that often. And there are songs--I'm looking at you, Dr Luther's Assistant, and you too, Broken--that I think are entirely naff. Everything can't be a winner.

For the record, I'd rate River in Reverse over When I Was Cruel. I'm not a big fan of the production on the latter, but there are some great songs on it.

And Momofuku a weakest album? Oh dear, we just can't have that...

:lol:
Who put these fingerprints on my imagination?
sulky lad
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Post by sulky lad »

I love the disparity in all this -- so, for example,
Episode Of Blonde is terrific - and I'm trying not to rave like a man possessed with no critical faculties here -
I'll never forget the start of the London Astoria gig with My Little Blue Window and the shivers that went up my spine at that moment
hearing Dust played at Sheffield in 2002 where Elvis stalked the stage and played the riff for what seemed like ages -
but, like so many of my judgements, all these relate to the live performances where the songs have come across best for me and the best 2 and a half hours that I have ever spent with Elvis was at The New Picket in Liverpool in 2007 with Steve Nieve, Allen Toussaint and the Crescent City horns and AT's other band members and the performances of those songs completely blew away any live performances I've seen of material from WIWC or indeed any other live show I've attended.
So my judgement isn't really based on which album is a clunker at all which makes all my points on this irrelevant :oops: :shock:
bronxapostle
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Post by bronxapostle »

Loving the discussion folks....it is all good to hear. Arbo, you might have misread me. I am a big fan of WIWC and i adore MOMOFUKU too Harry. But, i shall agree also about clearly placing SPIKE and MLAR towards the bottom for sure.
Hawksmoor
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Post by Hawksmoor »

sulky lad wrote:I love the disparity in all this -- so, for example,
Episode Of Blonde is terrific - and I'm trying not to rave like a man possessed with no critical faculties here -
I'll never forget the start of the London Astoria gig with My Little Blue Window and the shivers that went up my spine at that moment
hearing Dust played at Sheffield in 2002 where Elvis stalked the stage and played the riff for what seemed like ages -
but, like so many of my judgements, all these relate to the live performances where the songs have come across best for me and the best 2 and a half hours that I have ever spent with Elvis was at The New Picket in Liverpool in 2007 with Steve Nieve, Allen Toussaint and the Crescent City horns and AT's other band members and the performances of those songs completely blew away any live performances I've seen of material from WIWC or indeed any other live show I've attended.
So my judgement isn't really based on which album is a clunker at all which makes all my points on this irrelevant :oops: :shock:
Much for me to agree with there. 'Episode of Blonde' is stunning in all of its studio and recorded-live versions. Always strikes me as an example of just how inspired and prolific a wordsmith EC is - it just flows out of him. So on WIWC, even after the song has apparently ended, he starts another incredibly complex and wordy verse over the fade-out - it's like he just can't stop, and I love that!

I was also at Sheffield in 2002, and yeah, of my 26 EC gigs so far (I'm sure others of you have done a lot more), that was a night to remember and no mistake. I love that EC's set-list is constantly evolving, as we all do, but I do think there are some songs which were mainstays of the live set in the tour for that LP, which now rarely appear. I love Pump It Up and PLU, of course, but for my money Episode of Blonde, You Bowed Down and There's a Story in Your Voice should definitely be among the end-of-the-night last encores. That middle-eight on TASIYV ('far away, not far enough...') is utterly inspired and has me on my feet every time I hear it.

Apologies. Like SL, I have drifted far from the original thread idea, but then I struggle to think of any EC LP I would call a 'clunker'. Individual tracks, maybe. Broken must have looked like an exciting experiment on paper, but the execution of the idea just...doesn't work, sorry. My Three Sons is, for me, clunkily maudlin, and I'm a father myself. And I could probably go the rest of my life without ever hearing The Stamping Ground again.
bronxapostle
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Post by bronxapostle »

AGAIN, i must defend myself! :?
i didn't dream up the clunker label.
someone, referred to WIWC in that regard and i was playfully defending it with this poll.
so, RIVER lp is not a clunker either.
like i said somewhere above....i just find it a tad forced and a bit tame.
funnily enough, EC spoke stunningly of it Sunday past, so i must rethink it fully.
A little humble pie for me, but once again:
THE TOUR WAS WAY BETTER!!!! and let me further pontificate...
songs that will NEVER clunk in my book:

DR. LUTHER'S ASSISTANT
ALIBI
PARTY PARTY
MY THREE SONS
BUTTON MY LIP
THE STAMPING GROUND
BROKEN
EISENHOWER BLUES
PLAYBOY TO A MAN
DEPORTEES CLUB
Last edited by bronxapostle on Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Arbogast
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Post by Arbogast »

See, now this has turned into an interesting conversation!

I'll have to have a listen to "Broken" today. Never paid it much attention one way or another. Maybe it's horrible.

For the record...

Three worst EC songs: Playboy to a Man, My Three Sons, Party Party.

Two worst things EC has ever done: 1) Accepted induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame 2) Accepted an OBE. An utter disgrace.

All that said: He rules!
sulky lad
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Post by sulky lad »

Arbogast wrote:See, now this has turned into an interesting conversation!

I'll have to have a listen to "Broken" today. Never paid it much attention one way or another. Maybe it's horrible.

For the record...

Three worst EC songs: Playboy to a Man, My Three Sons, Party Party.

"Two worst things EC has ever done: 1) Accepted induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame 2) Accepted an OBE. An utter disgrace."

All that said: He rules!
Heard this before somewhere haven't I?
Like BA, I can't knock Dr.Luther, Deportees Club or Eisenhower Blues even if I know that the latter will disappear first come the KOA survivor game.
Playboy sounds too much like a Macca outtake, and a pretty poor one at that and Party Party is slight but no worse than some other fillers from different albums but I've also cringed thinking about My Three Sons especially when it seems a bit like an apology to Matt for the devotion being shed on the twins - maybe reading too much into it but that's a song that should have been kept between four walls at EC's home.
Re the Hall Of Fame, I see no disgrace in that apart from not letting Bruce play on at least one song.
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Top balcony
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Post by Top balcony »

Sulky - of course agree about The Picket.

As to the "Two worst things EC has ever done: 1) not following his father's football team, 2) North

I understand that there will only be widespread acceptance of my first choice.
However for me that entire album should have stayed within their 'own four walls'. Seriously happy that he found he was in the mood again, but really should have been kept for when they got on their own behind closed doors.

And as for Dr Luther's Assistant, when he played it in Mudchester on 14th July 2014, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven!
bronxapostle
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Post by bronxapostle »

NOOOOOOOOOOOO TOP B!!!! :twisted: :twisted:
you better leave my NORTH all alone! love, love, love it.
and may i defend MY THREE SONS in this way. that melody and production are so intertwined that the schmaltz of the lyric should not be considered the bane so many hang around its neck. i got the willies each of the 2 or 3 times i have seen SONS played live. see folks, ain't it fun to disagree in a friendly manner? cheers to all my pals here, ALWAYS!!!

p.s. i have been good to not harangue....but, with 800+ views here, can i please see a few more votes cast? again, NO GREAT INSULT to either record album. just, which do you find a bit behind the other one please????
Arbogast
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Post by Arbogast »

Apropos of nothing in particular, but a thoughtful, elegant observation:

https://twitter.com/paranoiacs/status/1 ... 9061001217
emotional_fascism076
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Post by emotional_fascism076 »

Arbogast wrote:See, now this has turned into an interesting conversation!

I'll have to have a listen to "Broken" today. Never paid it much attention one way or another. Maybe it's horrible.
I know I may be in a minority on this but MLAR is one of my favorite EC albums. Broken is a stand out song like nothing he's done before. Sweet Pear is great too for the very soulful vocal delivery.
Who on earth is tapping at the window?
sulky lad
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Post by sulky lad »

emotional_fascism076 wrote:
Arbogast wrote:See, now this has turned into an interesting conversation!

I'll have to have a listen to "Broken" today. Never paid it much attention one way or another. Maybe it's horrible.
I know I may be in a minority on this but MLAR is one of my favorite EC albums. Broken is a stand out song like nothing he's done before. Sweet Pear is great too for the very soulful vocal delivery.
I particularly love Elvis' voice on MLAR, though "Broken" wouldn't stand out for me but "Sweet Pear" and "CCIU4" are amazing vocal performances. In fact, I'd argue he never sang this well again after "TJL" when his singing developed an awful vibrato as he tried too hard to be a "classical vocalist" - imho of course!
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Top balcony
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Post by Top balcony »

emotional_fascism076 wrote: ...I know I may be in a minority on this but MLAR is one of my favorite EC albums...
I am in your minority too.
bronxapostle
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Post by bronxapostle »

Top balcony wrote:
emotional_fascism076 wrote: ...I know I may be in a minority on this but MLAR is one of my favorite EC albums...
I am in your minority too.
It's not that i don't love many of the songs....it's in the flow of what is usually the magical convergence of things that add up to make 10-14 tunes into AN ALBUM. Songs compiled in a serendipitous way that are inextricably AND inexplicably conjoined.
Last edited by bronxapostle on Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
rightbrain
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Post by rightbrain »

Very much enjoying this friendly discussion. Count me in as a fan of MLAR. "Couldn't Call It Unexpected #4" is one of the best vocals EC has ever done. "All Grown Up" is also fantastic. But then again, I adore NORTH, and just about everything on PFM.

In fact, I frequently return to "Ascension Day," "The Sharpest Thorn," "International Echo," and "Broken Promise Land" from TRIR . . . so, like most things, your mileage may vary.

As for clunker "vocal performances," I find EC's delivery on "The World Of Broken Hearts" (the Pomus/Shuman cover that was the B-side of the "From Head To Toe" 45 in September, 1982) to be un-listenable. Especially since it was released on the heels of his best vocals to date on IbMePdErRoIoAmL from just 2 months prior. Quite jarring (and grating) by contrast, to say the least, IMHO.

But, as I've said before, with all of the various genres and styles over 43+ years, there will always be a rich variety of EC songs (and performances) to suit any and every mood, God bless him! And to suit any and every AGE, for that matter. That's the fun of it. The 17-year-old "me" that was wearing out the vinyl of TYM could never have imagined (at the time) a future 41-year-old me really connecting with NORTH in 2003 (and beyond), but there you have it.
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Lester Burnham
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Post by Lester Burnham »

emotional_fascism076 wrote:
Arbogast wrote:See, now this has turned into an interesting conversation!

I'll have to have a listen to "Broken" today. Never paid it much attention one way or another. Maybe it's horrible.
I know I may be in a minority on this but MLAR is one of my favorite EC albums. Broken is a stand out song like nothing he's done before. Sweet Pear is great too for the very soulful vocal delivery.
Honestly, same. It's one of his most consistent albums (minus Playboy to a Man – holy moly, now that is a clunker) and I find it far more listenable than Spike, and actually more interesting than Brutal Youth. I also have very fond memories of buying it in the summer of 2004 at Amoeba Records in Los Angeles while I was on vacation there, so it instantly has a summery feel to it.
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