Aimee Mann talks about Elvis

Pretty self-explanatory
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johnfoyle
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Aimee Mann talks about Elvis

Post by johnfoyle »

Thanks to Mike on listserv for this -

( extract)


"I spent a lot of time listening to Elvis Costello. At this point,
though, I just need a little more emotional connection than Elvis often
delivers. The wordplay is delicious and the love of language is fantastic,
but I really need the emotional connection. What's going on with you?
What do you care about? What's bothering you? It feels ungenerous to me
otherwise. I want to know. I want to know what you're thinking about. I
definitely learned a lot of songwriting craft from him, though."



http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2005/0 ... index.html



Image


Hit Mann

March 30, 2005

After dissolving her '80s band, 'Til Tuesday, and
pursuing a solo career, Aimee Mann drew as much attention for her
consistently troubled, often outright antagonistic relationship with labels in
the mid-1990s as for her music. Then director P.T. Anderson released
"Magnolia" in 1999, a film he said was inspired by Mann's songs, and
which also featured some of her best work. It managed to focus attention
back on her music and expose her to a wider audience than ever before.

After that career boost, Mann steadfastly continued an independent
career, releasing her last two records ("Bachelor No. 2" in 2000 and "Lost
in Space" in 2002) and her upcoming, much-anticipated concept album,
"The Forgotten Arm" (available May 3), on her own Superego label. "The
Forgotten Arm," she says, is set in the early '70s, and recounts the
shaky relationship between John, a Vietnam vet and boxer, and Caroline as
they meet, fall in love and set out on a cross-country road trip (go
here to listen to a few sample tracks). Produced by Joe Henry and recorded
over just nine days, it's her most straight-ahead rock record to date,
but the songwriting is as crafted and subtle as ever, a series of
first-person accounts that delve into the psychological subtleties of the
two characters with Mann's customary grace.

That won't surprise her fans; Mann is one of the best songwriters of
her generation, unfailingly articulate and rarely abstract, but never
overly wordy or self-consciously clever -- which is quite a feat. She
writes lovingly sculpted melodies that duck and weave and pirouette and
double back on themselves with serpentine grace. She then pairs them with
lyrics that offer richly detailed psychological portraits of broken
lives. She clearly has a fascination with chronicling the lives of people
who are falling apart, and her music often treads a delicate emotional
line: Melancholy bordering on desperation, but simultaneously conveying
a kind, motherly compassion and sense of comfort. She manages to be
victim and savior at the same time, and the trick, I think, is in her
voice, warm with intimacy but always somewhat detached from the stories she
tells, touched with a chill of cynicism, unimpressed with her own
emotional vulnerability. It sounds like a paradox, and it is, but that's
what
makes her music so unusual and so moving. In her Grammy-nominated song
"Save Me" (a rare instance of the Grammys singling out an artist's best
work), Mann is calling out for help, but she also sounds so wise and in
control that you can't imagine a better person to help her than
herself.

I met with Mann on a Sunday afternoon, a day after she'd performed much
of the new record to an appreciative crowd at the South by Southwest
Festival in Austin, Texas. She was hungry, and rejected in no uncertain
terms the TGI Friday's in her hotel, so we talked over barbecued brisket
at local Austin restaurant Threadgill's.

Did you start "The Forgotten Arm" with a story, or with the desire to
make a concept album?


As I started writing I just liked more and more the idea of having a
story, and I think writing songs for movies put this idea in my head --
it was almost like writing songs for a nonexistent movie. I had some
scenes from movies like "Two-Lane Blacktop," or a scene from P.T.
Anderson's first movie, "Hard Eight," when Gwyneth Paltrow and John C. Reilly
run off together, in my head. Because I'd written this song "King of the
Jailhouse," which is about these two people running off together, and
that's just such a classic thing, to feel like you can leave all of your
problems behind.

Was that the first song you wrote for the record?

No, not the first one. I had a couple others, but once I wrote that one
and realized that I wanted the record to be about those two people I
went back and rewrote other ones a little bit to make them fit. Having it
be a concept album makes it more interesting for me, and it gives me
permission to not have to make all the songs different. I had a couple of
songs like "King of the Jailhouse" and "Goodbye Caroline," and thought,
What the hell is this about? It just seems to be such a specific
scenario, but I didn't know the back story. So it was interesting for me to
say, What would the circumstances be? Who would these characters be?

Does the record unfold chronologically?

Loosely. They meet at the Virginia State Fair in the early '70s. He's a
boxer and she's dying to get out of town because she thinks she'll be a
different person if she's in a different place. So they set off
together, and he's got a drug problem, which starts to get more apparent.

What drug?

I don't really have a specific one in mind. You know, alcohol and
whatever else is around. The great thing about a concept album is that you
can be as specific or unspecific as you want, choose which details you
want to cover.

Why did you set it in the '70s?

I had the image of these people meeting at the fair in the early '70s
because it's this really perfectly white-trash image for me.

You have a thing for white trash?

Oh, I have a real weakness for white trash, a certain kind of rednecky
thing.

You have become very interested in boxing. How did you get into it?

I don't know. I just got interested in it and I had a friend who boxed
and he gave me a couple of lessons. I really like fighting, sparring,
that's my favorite part. The fitness part doesn't really appeal to me. I
like competing but I'm not really about winning, necessarily. I like
fighting with someone when we're both doing our best, and when I get
caught with a punch I'm just like, Good shot, way to go. It's funny
sparring with girls because we always apologize. I mean, yes, I'm trying to
hit you in the head, but I'm sorry for succeeding. Sometimes we spar with
guys, because if they're bigger and more skilled they can work on
defense while we throw punches at them. It's very funny to see the girls
smacking these guys around and apologizing for every punch.

The character of John is based on this friend of mine who is a drug
addict, a semi-recovering drug addict, and he's a boxer, and so that's how
I got interested in boxing. But my personal interaction with him was
also my real education in real hardcore drug addiction.

Was he the source of the forgotten arm image?

Yeah, he's a real character. That was his name for a move he made up.
He just came up with it on the spot when he was explaining the move to
me.

You also wrote quite a bit about drug addiction on your last record,
"Lost in Space."


But that was drug addiction more as a metaphor for other kinds of
internal problems. Everybody knows what it's like to be obsessed or
preoccupied, and have behavior where you always think, Why do I do that? Every
day I vow not to eat a doughnut in the morning and yet I can't seem to
stop. Everyone has their vices like that. But the thing with drug
addiction is that it's this sort of secret world. If you're not a drug
addict nobody else understands. On "Lost in Space," it was a metaphor for
those kinds of ideas, that kind of secret shame and alienation. I don't
think I really talk about addiction as much on this record, even though
in a more serious direct way it is about it.

Why are you so intrigued with people whose lives are falling apart?


Well, there's the question of why. How does this happen? How does it
get so out of hand? It's funny, the answer with drug addiction is the
same as the answer for recovery: one step at a time. You keep taking steps
further and further away from sanity, and you can wind up in a really,
really fucking dark place. And I always think the more information you
have the better, like maybe you can protect yourself from such bad
choices.

Can you take me through a personal history of you as a music
appreciator, what your tastes have been and how they developed?


There were always just a very, very few things that I liked when I was
a kid. My parents had a couple of records I really liked. Peter, Paul
and Mary, Glenn Campbell singing all those great Jimmy Webb songs, a
couple of Beatles records. [A friend stops by our table and Mann says,
"We're talking about my musical history of hating almost everything."] So
there were a couple of Beatles records, and my baby sitter had Neil
Young's "Harvest." It was almost always more singer-songwriter-y kind of
people. Just real classic early '70s, late '60s pop rock.

Has that changed?

Not at all, it's still the same.

And you still hate mostly everything?

Yeah. I always get asked what I'm listening to now. Nothing, really. In
the '60s and '70s there weren't a ton of people who had put records
out, because people hadn't yet figured out that you could make tons and
tons of money. There weren't so many people chasing after that the way
there are now. I don't know how people find music they really like! There
aren't any music magazines I really trust. And also I have a very, very
specific taste in songwriting, because that's what I do, and I try to
write the kinds of songs that I really like. And I probably wouldn't
even care about doing that if there were a number of people writing songs
that were exactly the kind of songs that I like.

How would you describe that specific kind of songwriting that you
really like?


There's a certain kind of melodic sense and a more old-school approach
to songwriting, like a more crafted song. I'm not so excited about
bands that are more about vibe than about good songwriting. But then again,
the vibe has to be there too. And lyrics that are written to a certain
standard, with the music married to the lyrics in a particular kind of
way. When I write, I never write words first. I listen to the music and
think, What does this sound like it's about to me?

So who are some of the prime influences on your songwriting?

I spent a lot of time listening to Elvis Costello. At this point,
though, I just need a little more emotional connection than Elvis often
delivers. The wordplay is delicious and the love of language is fantastic,
but I really need the emotional connection. What's going on with you?
What do you care about? What's bothering you? It feels ungenerous to me
otherwise. I want to know. I want to know what you're thinking about. I
definitely learned a lot of songwriting craft from him, though.


Burt Bacharach?

Yeah, I love Bacharach. Probably in "Bachelor No. 2" that was really
prevalent, and is a little bit less so right now.

Dylan? I hear his influence much less in your music than with most
singer-songwriters.


I can't say that I'm a Dylan fan, but I listened to "Blood on the
Tracks" like 50 million times when I was a kid. There's usually just one or
two albums that I'll get almost autistically attached to. You can't pry
it out of my fingers.

So "Blood on the Tracks" was your Dylan record; which was your Elvis
Costello record?

"Imperial Bedroom" and "Get Happy." Although really, I did listen to
many of his records. More so than Dylan. You'd think I'd buy more Dylan,
but I was happy with "Blood on the Tracks."


Randy Newman?

Yeah, but he's a little emotionally detached to me. I do like the way
he writes from inside a character's head. But I almost get the vibe of
the kind of guy who can only be emotional when he's really hammered. But
yeah, he was a big influence. Especially with all the Southern stuff. I
love that.

What about the super-literary types like Tom Waits, Leonard Cohen, Nick
Cave?


Tom Waits is a great lyricist, but that kind of back-alley,
whiskey-soaked thing is a bit too much for me. I like more melody than that. And
that Leonard Cohen, bless his heart. Bless his little heart. I don't
really know Nick Cave's stuff.

You don't really reference the Bible or old blues lyrics enough to
belong to that crowd.


I've got to start. You know what, that'll be my next project. Or maybe
I'll just reference the A.A. Big Book instead.

Harry Nilsson?

Yeah, I think for earlier albums I listened to a lot of Nilsson. But
he's maybe a touch precious to be optimal. See! You see what a snob I am.
If it's not exactly what I do I'm not into it. Because I try to do
exactly what I like.

Do the Beatles remain the gold standard for you?

You know, I think it's just the state of mind I'm in now, but I can't
listen to the Beatles records anymore, I've just heard them too many
times. I'm going to stay away from them for a few decades so I can hear
them fresh again.

Are there any songwriters currently working whom you really admire, who
write songs in the way that you like them to be written?


Well, Elliott [Smith], poor thing, until he died. I don't know.

Were you ever concerned about becoming just a poster child for major
label injustice?


Yeah, I got asked about that a lot. And the reality is, once I was off
I just didn't care, I just didn't give it a second thought. It's OK to
complain for a bit but then you have to do something about it. And I
felt like I'd done something about it, so I didn't need to keep
complaining.

If a label like Nonesuch or ANTI -- one of the big labels that seems to
be genuinely artist friendly -- wanted to put out your next record,
would you consider it?


No. I'd consider it if New West wanted to, but only because the owner
is a friend of mine. I'd love to do a project with him, he's awesome.

The press for your new record compares it repeatedly to a novella. Have
you ever written fiction?


No, I'm a terrible, terrible writer.

Who are some of your favorite authors?

Fitzgerald short stories, that's my favorite stuff. Edith Wharton,
Hemingway, J.D. Salinger. The old classics.

Unless there's something else interesting you want to talk about I
think we're done.

The things that are interesting to me wouldn't be interesting to anyone
else. I could talk for another half-hour about boxing. There's nothing
more boring than someone who's got a hobby and just keeps going on and
on about it. Dylan boxes! I'd love to spar with Dylan.

I think he'd be mean.

I bet he wouldn't be so mean in the ring, though. That's a really
interesting thing about boxing. You can't be mad. You can't be mad at
someone if they hit you. You can't bring anger into it. When we all spar, you
have such respect for each other, and you know how hard everybody's
working. It's a lot of camaraderie. Like emotionally you're more careful
with each other because physically you're less careful.

Last question, other than music, what are the things you love most in
the world?


Just boxing. Right now, that's it. Music and boxing.
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BlueChair
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Post by BlueChair »

The new record isn't her best, but highly recommended come May 3rd when it's released.
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Post by Copenhagen Fan »

Aimee has no idea what Elvis is feeling cuz she's not a man. I know exactly how he feels. I always wondered how EC could have so many female fans when his gig is all about things a man feels. Maybe women love his way with words! But as far as the feelings are concerned....very manish stuff.
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Monkey Girl
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Re: Aimee Mann talks about Elvis

Post by Monkey Girl »

Aimee Mann:


"I spent a lot of time listening to Elvis Costello. At this point,
though, I just need a little more emotional connection than Elvis often
delivers. The wordplay is delicious and the love of language is fantastic,
but I really need the emotional connection. What's going on with you?
What do you care about? What's bothering you? It feels ungenerous to me
otherwise. I want to know. I want to know what you're thinking about. I
definitely learned a lot of songwriting craft from him, though."


Copenhagen,
I think you are right to a certain extent....

....but I am a woman and I feel extremely connected emotionally to what he sings and how he delivers.

When I listen to an Elvis song, I am there... I am a part of it. I may not be at that place in my life to truly relate...but I understand it and feel it.

The intense emotion in his voice and how he varies it to create a very specific mood is, I think, masterful.

So...to each his own, I suppose....(but, I have no idea what Aimee is talking about!)
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Post by pophead2k »

At some point, EC and Aimee had a major falling out which neither has commented on in any detail. They co-wrote The Other End of the Telescope and The World's Own Optimist, but then Costello made a cryptic remark that he wouldn't work with her again cause she had developed 'amnesia'. I'm not sure what it meant, but he sure seemed pissed. This is the first I've seen Aimee mention EC since then. Aimee's version of the World's Own Optimist have lyrics that I always felt could be some sort of description of their situation, but I have no proof of it. I love 'em both though.
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pophead2k
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Post by pophead2k »

Here's the lyrics of "World's Own Optimist". The first verse especially always seemed like a comment on her falling out with EC. The "Caesar who was only slumming" part too seems to indicate a master songwriter working with a beginning one. I know I'm reading too much, but it all makes sense to me. The fact that they wrote this together doesn't mean much. They co-wrote The Other End of the Telescope, but I think they each wrote their own set of lyrics.

There's no charity in you
and that surprises me
I guess I thought you were a golden idol
cause I called you majesty
on the balustrade
you watched me hunt for tips I was obliged to pick up
from the passing trade

Hey, kids--look at this
it's the fall of the world's own optimist
I could get back up if you insist
but you'll have to ask politely
cause the eggshells I've been treading
couldn't spare me a beheading
and I'll know I had it coming
from a Caesar who was only slumming
Hey, kids--look at this
it's the fall of the world's own optimist

Well, I could have objections
which you could override
but what's the point--we're only flogging the horse
when the horseman has up and died
once I testified
and swore I'd never leave a stone unturned--
I bet you're really glad that I lied

Hey, kids--look at this
it's the fall of the world's own optimist
I could get back up if you insist
but you'll have to ask politely
cause the eggshells I've been treading
couldn't spare me a beheading
and I'll know I had it coming
from a Caesar who was only slumming
Hey, kids--look at this
it's the fall of the world's own optimist

Hey, kids--look at this
it's the fall of the world's own optimist
I could get back up if you insist
but you'll have to ask politely
yes, you'll have to ask politely
yes, you'll have to ask
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BlueChair
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Post by BlueChair »

Speaking of Aimee, the first batch of dates for her upcoming tour have been announced:

AIMEE MANN ON TOUR

May 6 '05 House of Blues Hollywood, CA
June 3 '05 McCarter Theatre Center Princeton, NJ
June 4 '05 Appel Farm Arts and Music Festival Elmer, NJ
June 5 '05 Higher Ground Burlington, VT
June 6 '05 Music Hall Portsmouth, NH
June 8 '05 Hart Theatre-The Egg Albany, NY
June 9 '05 Orpheum Theatre Boston, MA
June 10 '05 Roseland New York, NY
June 11 '05 Ram's Head Baltimore, MD
June 13 '05 Whitaker Center Harrisburg, PA
June 16 '05 Atlanta Botanical Garden Atlanta, GA
June 18 '05 NC Museum of Art Raleigh, NC
June 19 '05 Three Rivers Arts Festival Pittsburgh, PA

More to follow
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Monkey Girl
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Post by Monkey Girl »

Thanks Pophead. Very interesting.....could be about EC.

I do think it strange how strong her comments were about him. Definitely something there.

And thanks Blue Chair! Maybe I'll catch up with her after the show and ask her face to face!
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And No Coffee Table
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Re: Aimee Mann talks about Elvis

Post by And No Coffee Table »

Aimee Mann on the Music That Made Her

Elvis Costello & the Attractions: “Girls Talk”

I had taken a trip to London with my boyfriend when I was in ’Til Tuesday, and “Voices Carry” was on the radio when we passed Elvis Costello and his wife on the street. My boyfriend said, “We just passed Elvis,” and I’m like, “Who?” He said, “Elvis! We should go back and say hi. I think he recognized you.” I didn’t know anybody named Elvis. I was like, “What are you talking about?” And that’s how I met Elvis Costello.

It was the biggest fucking thrill of my life—what a stroke of luck. He was so nice. He’s the guy who knows everything. His knowledge is deep and vast. It’s really intimidating. We ended up writing a couple songs together, and I used to cover “Girls Talk” live for a while. I was so crazy about that song.
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And No Coffee Table
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Re: Aimee Mann talks about Elvis

Post by And No Coffee Table »

Aimee Mann had dinner with U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken, talked about Elvis Costello (among other subjects), and drew a cartoon she posted on Instagram.

Image

Blinken also tweeted about it.
Hawksmoor
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Re: Aimee Mann talks about Elvis

Post by Hawksmoor »

It certainly sounds like they might have had a 'difference of opinion' at some point, sure. But I think this is a little disingenuous:

'I spent a lot of time listening to Elvis Costello. At this point, though, I just need a little more emotional connection than Elvis often delivers. The wordplay is delicious and the love of language is fantastic, but I really need the emotional connection. What's going on with you? What do you care about? What's bothering you? It feels ungenerous to me otherwise. I want to know. I want to know what you're thinking about'.

I understand what she's saying, but it feels a bit like the lazy thing you sometimes get about EC from journalists: that because his lyrics are so inspired, and because he's so bloody good at wordplay...that must mean there's nothing else going on beneath the surface? That all he's really interested in is amusing rhymes and clever puns, right?

Wrong. Elvis chooses to tell stories, to create scenarios, to sing in the voice of other people, to try and make the listener think about the situation he's singing about, or to maybe look at it in a different way. Just because Elvis doesn't write simple-to-understand, heart-on-your-sleeve lyrics (and doesn't do an interview after every LP to say 'OK, so this one's about the time my girlfriend left me, and what this line means is...'), doesn't mean that there's no 'emotional connection'.

You want to know what Elvis 'cares about'? Try 'Shipbuilding', 'Tramp the Dirt Down', 'Jimmie Standing in the Rain', 'Under Lime', 'One Bell Ringing' or 'Let Him Dangle', for starters. And if you can't find any 'emotional connection' in 'So Like Candy', 'Baby Plays Around', 'He's Given Me Things', 'How To Be Dumb', 'Byline' or 'In the Darkest Place', you've got a pretty strange way of listening to them! :D
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Re: Aimee Mann talks about Elvis

Post by cwr »

I think the keys to this quote are that she seems to be talking more about early EC, and the wording of "often delivers." For every "Almost Blue" where the emotion is front and center and the lyric crystal clear, there are several other songs where at least one line is written in a kind of code or is evocative in ways that are interesting ("smoking the everlasting cigarette of chastity") but may be hard to unlock if you are another singer looking to find a way in to performing the song. (One reason why a song like "Almost Blue" remains one of his most covered works while other beautiful records like "Deep Dark Truthful Mirror" seem to entice fewer other artists to approach them; he has a lot of songs where you can feel the emotion without fully understanding what he's singing about.)

I think the lyric change in the Mann/Costello co-write "Telescope" is a good example: the first version's "though your wristwatch always works your necktie never fits" is a pretty simple meaning to track, while the updated "or several tiny fractions that this portrait still omits" has left me sort of baffled for the 25+ years I've been hearing it.

Generalizing about Costello in 2022 is sort of useless because now that we are 650+ songs deep, his body of work is so rich and varied that you can't really say he writes one kind of song or another. But I think it's a little easier to do from the vantage point of his first 10 years, when a song like "Just A Memory" was outnumbered by songs that were perhaps a little less emotionally vulnerable or straightforward in that way.
Hawksmoor
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Re: Aimee Mann talks about Elvis

Post by Hawksmoor »

cwr wrote:I think the keys to this quote are that she seems to be talking more about early EC, and the wording of "often delivers." For every "Almost Blue" where the emotion is front and center and the lyric crystal clear, there are several other songs where at least one line is written in a kind of code or is evocative in ways that are interesting ("smoking the everlasting cigarette of chastity") but may be hard to unlock if you are another singer looking to find a way in to performing the song. (One reason why a song like "Almost Blue" remains one of his most covered works while other beautiful records like "Deep Dark Truthful Mirror" seem to entice fewer other artists to approach them; he has a lot of songs where you can feel the emotion without fully understanding what he's singing about.)

I think the lyric change in the Mann/Costello co-write "Telescope" is a good example: the first version's "though your wristwatch always works your necktie never fits" is a pretty simple meaning to track, while the updated "or several tiny fractions that this portrait still omits" has left me sort of baffled for the 25+ years I've been hearing it.

Generalizing about Costello in 2022 is sort of useless because now that we are 650+ songs deep, his body of work is so rich and varied that you can't really say he writes one kind of song or another. But I think it's a little easier to do from the vantage point of his first 10 years, when a song like "Just A Memory" was outnumbered by songs that were perhaps a little less emotionally vulnerable or straightforward in that way.
It's really interesting. Loads of thoughts I have that are triggered by things you say! One is the story about TS Eliot (no idea if it's urban myth) that when a lady wrote to him to say she was a big fan of his work, but the one line that had always puzzled her was 'three white leopards sat under a juniper tree' - could he explain it to her? Eliot supposedly wrote back to say that the meaning of the line 'three white leopards sat under a juniper tree' was...

'Three white leopards sat under a juniper tree' :D. In other words, it means what it says! And if you're going to start explaining it, and saying 'well, what that means is X, Y and Z' - why not just write X, Y and Z in the first place? And stop trying to baffle the reader with crossword-clue lines that they're expected to try and figure out what you're 'really' saying?

Another thing I think is that 'He's Given Me Things' and 'Mr Crescent' are songs that can reduce me to tears. Don't worry, I'm not going to provide chapter and verse about my own life and relationships! But I will say that some of the most cryptic and baffling lines in those songs are the ones that really twist the knife. And I love that: I suspect that if he'd written those lyrics in a much more obvious and literal way, with 'pretty simple meanings to track', they wouldn't affect me in the same way. I think.

And you're absolutely right that there's nothing wrong with a song whose meaning is 'easy to track'. But at the same time, I'd contend that 'lyrics ambiguous and difficult to pin down' and 'clear and obvious emotion in the situation evoked by the song' are not mutually exclusive criteria. :)
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Re: Aimee Mann talks about Elvis

Post by Newspaper Pane »

I sat near Aimee at an EC show in Boston in '86.
cwr
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Re: Aimee Mann talks about Elvis

Post by cwr »

Hawksmoor wrote:
cwr wrote:But at the same time, I'd contend that 'lyrics ambiguous and difficult to pin down' and 'clear and obvious emotion in the situation evoked by the song' are not mutually exclusive criteria. :)
There are lots of EC songs I don't fully understand which affect me emotionally, but I do think that this is where the notion of someone needing "a little more emotional connection than Elvis often delivers" becomes a little easier to understand. Clear and obvious emotion being expressed doesn't always mean that it 100% connects with a listener, even if it's obvious they are mad/sad/glad about the thing they are (cryptically) singing about.
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