Another one bites the dust...and boy, do I have mixed feelings about this guy!
On the one hand, I was one of those who thought the controversy over his special Oscar was a little silly. Personal morality and artistic achievement are two separate matters. If Kazan had been found to be, say, a child murderer, I would have said he STILL should get the award (though, naturally, he would have to accept it from death row).
On the other hand, he does seem to have been a pretty excreble example of humanity. (My latest source being the TV doc on the friendship between him and Arthur Miller, who comes off a whole heck of lot better.)
And, maybe it's knowing that it's a sort of deeply dishonest crypto-apologia for his "naming names" before the HUAC, but I can never consider "On the Waterfront" to be more than a pretty decent drama, not the all-time classic so many of a certain generation and upbringing believe it to be.
On the other hand, there's no denying the influence of Kazan on, among other things, acting styles. Without his work on "Waterfront" and on the truly great "Streetcar Named Desire", it might have taken another several years for "the method" to fully infiltrate Hollywood.
On the other hand, I'm sorry, I just can't quite place him in the same category as Hitchcock, Hawks, Ford, Lean, Michael Powell or almost any other English-language director who usually ends up in the top-tier movie director pantheons. He was really just a very gifted interpreter without much of a vision of his own, as far as I could see, other than a sort of typical ethnic social realism of the type that rose up during the late thirties. Though my disdain may be partly tied up with my upbringing (hearing my older relatives praise this sort of thing to the skies, denigrating more imaginative genre films) and the fact that I'm not completely crazy about neorealism, Ameican or European.
But, in a way, I'm praising him with faint damns, here. Many wonderful directors are interpreters not "auteurs" (Stephen Frears, for example; many would put Lean in this category as well, but I just can't, somehow). "Gentlemen's Agreement" is definitely one of the best films about real world prejudice I've seen. (It makes the point, all too easily forgotten, that it's not the obvious "haters" who drive racism, but the "nice people" who subtly carry the same prejudices, who are the real problem.)
I still haven't seen "A Face in the Crowd" (never plays in revivals -- not out on DVD and I refuse to watch it on video!) or some of the others that have their fans -- "Man on a Tightrope",which may be somewhat politically hard for me to take since its anti-Soviet themes seems way self-serving under the circumstances....
And, of course, I'm not even considering his stage work, which, sadly, can only be read about now.
Yep, it was definitely a big life for Mr. Kazan.
R.I.P. Elia Kazan
R.I.P. Elia Kazan
Last edited by bobster on Sun Sep 28, 2003 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.forwardtoyesterday.com -- Where "hopelessly dated" is a compliment!
-
noiseradio
- Posts: 2295
- Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 12:04 pm
- Location: Dallas, TX
- Contact:
It's not that I have respect for blacklist informants. It's that I have respect for the predicament they were in. Duress is a terrible thing. With a gun to your head, you'd do a lot of things. And in the throes of McCarthyism, while I reserve the most honor for those who would not go along, I feel sympathy for those that were placed in the position of Kazan and others.
I don't know how accurate this is, but in Kazan's case, my understanding is that he basically "gave up" people they already knew about. Like the kid in Schindler's List who points to the man they just shot and says "He stole the chicken," so that no more harm will come to anyone else.
I don't know how accurate this is, but in Kazan's case, my understanding is that he basically "gave up" people they already knew about. Like the kid in Schindler's List who points to the man they just shot and says "He stole the chicken," so that no more harm will come to anyone else.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
--William Shakespeare
--William Shakespeare
The entertainment industry has a long history of being full of gifted artists who create work that has enriched all of our lives and yet are complete bastards by the same token. Bing Crosby, Muddy Waters, Spencer Tracy, Miles Davis, Marlon Brando, Otto Preminger and countless others. Elia Kazan, unfortunately, was another. Naming names was a despicable thing to do, no matter the rationale, and he definitely used a lot of people in his lifetime and then had no time for them once he advanced his career and/or slept with them.
Still, the best of his films will stand the test of time. A Streetcar Named Desire, Viva Zapata!, A Face In The Crowd, East of Eden, Wild River, Baby Doll (a personal favorite), The Last Tycoon (very underrated with a great Jack Nicholson turn) and On The Waterfront. His films did as much as any of the great method actors in redefining film acting. It's just too damn bad that the greatness he achieved in his field is forever marred by some atrocious personal choices. Even if said choices led him to making his best film to explain himself.
Still, the best of his films will stand the test of time. A Streetcar Named Desire, Viva Zapata!, A Face In The Crowd, East of Eden, Wild River, Baby Doll (a personal favorite), The Last Tycoon (very underrated with a great Jack Nicholson turn) and On The Waterfront. His films did as much as any of the great method actors in redefining film acting. It's just too damn bad that the greatness he achieved in his field is forever marred by some atrocious personal choices. Even if said choices led him to making his best film to explain himself.
Re: R.I.P. Elia Kazan
[quote="bobster"]
On the other hand, I'm sorry, I just can't quite place him in the same category as Hitchcock, Hawks, Ford, Lean, Michael Powell or almost any other English-language director who usually ends up in the top-tier movie director pantheons. He was really just a very gifted interpreter without much of a vision of his own, as far as I could see, other than a sort of typical ethnic social realism of the type that rose up during the late thirties. Though my disdain may be partly tied up with my upbringing (hearing my older relatives praise this sort of thing to the skies, denigrating more imaginative genre films) and the fact that I'm not completely crazy about neorealism, Ameican or European. quote]
What's your take on Leo McCarey, Bobster? I think he remains one of the most underrated greats from Hollywood's golden era and had about as much to do with improving the pacing of early talkies as Howard Hawks.
On the other hand, I'm sorry, I just can't quite place him in the same category as Hitchcock, Hawks, Ford, Lean, Michael Powell or almost any other English-language director who usually ends up in the top-tier movie director pantheons. He was really just a very gifted interpreter without much of a vision of his own, as far as I could see, other than a sort of typical ethnic social realism of the type that rose up during the late thirties. Though my disdain may be partly tied up with my upbringing (hearing my older relatives praise this sort of thing to the skies, denigrating more imaginative genre films) and the fact that I'm not completely crazy about neorealism, Ameican or European. quote]
What's your take on Leo McCarey, Bobster? I think he remains one of the most underrated greats from Hollywood's golden era and had about as much to do with improving the pacing of early talkies as Howard Hawks.
-
bambooneedle
- Posts: 4533
- Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 4:02 pm
- Location: a few thousand miles south east of Zanzibar
I have to say that I found On The Waterfront a really striking film as a young teenager before I knew who Elia Kazan was. It's just so well put together in terms of its dramatic dynamics, visual poetry and affecting score. Something very human in it seems to filter through for me. I had every line almost perfectly committed to memory, even before watching it 20 or 25 times. It's little things like the metaphor of Johnny Friendly washing his hands, mouthing off about "the commission" who he realizes is onto him, and the 'leave me alone' wave Terry gives Edie on the roof after he testifies and feels his friends have betrayed him. And just Brando, and a high standard of acting overall.bobster wrote:I can never consider "On the Waterfront" to be more than a pretty decent drama
-
martinfoyle
- Posts: 2502
- Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 5:24 pm
- Location: Dublin, Ireland
- Contact:
Re: R.I.P. Elia Kazan
Stepen Frears latest film, The Deal, was on tv last night and its another fine addition to his filmography. Sure the 2 leads got all the great reviews, deservedly. The real revelation to me was Frank Kelly as John Smith. Kelly is a character actor best known for his perforamnces as Fr. Jack in Fr. Ted . In the Deal he gives a great performance totallly free of the tics that dog his usual work. This is a true testimony to the directing skills of Frears.But, in a way, I'm praising him with faint damns, here. Many wonderful directors are interpreters not "auteurs" (Stephen Frears, for example; many would put Lean in this category as well, but I just can't, somehow)
Noiseradio --
It's true that Kazan -- like everyone else from a similar background -- was in a tough bind. And it's not like I have a huge amount of sympathy with folks who stayed in the Communist Party after the purges, the Hitler/Stalin pact, the invasion of Hungary, etc.
His rationalization was basically, "why should I go to the mat for this group of thugs", which, as far as it went was understandable. What he failed to realize was that it wouldn't have been the communist party he was protecting, but the very idea of free speech.
As one of the best known figures of the time, Kazan's resistance would have been invaluable in breaking the blacklist, and might have hastened it's end by several years. Also, it would have required considerably less heroism on his part than for most others. He could always have gone back to Broadway and been just a little less rich and famous (or, at least, rich and famous enough for anyone who is not a giant egomanica).
Also, I was thinking about his treatment of Miller and other personal matters that came up in the documentary. He was really kind of a disgusting letch, even by Hollywood standards. (One actress -- not a girlfriend -- told a story about him coming up to her to say "hi" and sticking his tongue in her mouth as if it was the most normal thing in the world to do.)
EV --
Leo McCarey....So far, the jury is still kind of out with me and him. He did direct "Duck Soup", my favorite Marx Brothers movie is very highly regarded, but so far, I'm respectful but not a giant sized fan. Haven't seen "Going My Way", "The Bells of St. Mary's" or "An Affair to Remember" (I guess that's the "guy" in me); I think "The Awful Truth" is a little over-rated...but on the other hand, this guy worked with Laurel & Hardy, W.C. Fields (I think) and so many others. Clearly important, just not neccessarily a personal favorite. There may also be other movies of his I've forgetten.
Bambooneedle --
Well, you're with the majority on that, probably. Lots of people smarter than me LOVE "On the Waterfront." I just don't. Again, I'm just slightly allergic to neorealism, I guess.
Martinfoyle--
Yes, Mr. Frears is a busy man. Still haven't even seen "Dirty Pretty Things"....btw -- if you haven't seen his great but sort of obscure zen (or maybe existentialist, or both) gangster film, "The Hit" (starring John Hurt, Terrance Stamp and really young Tim Roth), do whatever you can to catch it. Not sure if it's available on DVD yet.
It's true that Kazan -- like everyone else from a similar background -- was in a tough bind. And it's not like I have a huge amount of sympathy with folks who stayed in the Communist Party after the purges, the Hitler/Stalin pact, the invasion of Hungary, etc.
His rationalization was basically, "why should I go to the mat for this group of thugs", which, as far as it went was understandable. What he failed to realize was that it wouldn't have been the communist party he was protecting, but the very idea of free speech.
As one of the best known figures of the time, Kazan's resistance would have been invaluable in breaking the blacklist, and might have hastened it's end by several years. Also, it would have required considerably less heroism on his part than for most others. He could always have gone back to Broadway and been just a little less rich and famous (or, at least, rich and famous enough for anyone who is not a giant egomanica).
Also, I was thinking about his treatment of Miller and other personal matters that came up in the documentary. He was really kind of a disgusting letch, even by Hollywood standards. (One actress -- not a girlfriend -- told a story about him coming up to her to say "hi" and sticking his tongue in her mouth as if it was the most normal thing in the world to do.)
EV --
Leo McCarey....So far, the jury is still kind of out with me and him. He did direct "Duck Soup", my favorite Marx Brothers movie is very highly regarded, but so far, I'm respectful but not a giant sized fan. Haven't seen "Going My Way", "The Bells of St. Mary's" or "An Affair to Remember" (I guess that's the "guy" in me); I think "The Awful Truth" is a little over-rated...but on the other hand, this guy worked with Laurel & Hardy, W.C. Fields (I think) and so many others. Clearly important, just not neccessarily a personal favorite. There may also be other movies of his I've forgetten.
Bambooneedle --
Well, you're with the majority on that, probably. Lots of people smarter than me LOVE "On the Waterfront." I just don't. Again, I'm just slightly allergic to neorealism, I guess.
Martinfoyle--
Yes, Mr. Frears is a busy man. Still haven't even seen "Dirty Pretty Things"....btw -- if you haven't seen his great but sort of obscure zen (or maybe existentialist, or both) gangster film, "The Hit" (starring John Hurt, Terrance Stamp and really young Tim Roth), do whatever you can to catch it. Not sure if it's available on DVD yet.
http://www.forwardtoyesterday.com -- Where "hopelessly dated" is a compliment!
John Hurt was AMAZING in that film.
Bobster, one more director I wanted to pick your brain over. Do you like William A. Wellman? He's another favorite of mine whom I should have mentioned when talking about developing and improving the pace of early sound pictures. The Public Enemy, The Oxbow Incident, the aerial combat sequences in Wings, the original A Star Is Born and especially Nothing Sacred (even if the early color used on that one was mofugly, that script is so special) are some of my favorites from that era. There was a really interesting A&E biography on the man three or four years ago that got me into him as an early master.
Bobster, one more director I wanted to pick your brain over. Do you like William A. Wellman? He's another favorite of mine whom I should have mentioned when talking about developing and improving the pace of early sound pictures. The Public Enemy, The Oxbow Incident, the aerial combat sequences in Wings, the original A Star Is Born and especially Nothing Sacred (even if the early color used on that one was mofugly, that script is so special) are some of my favorites from that era. There was a really interesting A&E biography on the man three or four years ago that got me into him as an early master.
-
martinfoyle
- Posts: 2502
- Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 5:24 pm
- Location: Dublin, Ireland
- Contact:
Indeed, I remember it well, must get the dvd.Yes, Mr. Frears is a busy man. Still haven't even seen "Dirty Pretty Things"....btw -- if you haven't seen his great but sort of obscure zen (or maybe existentialist, or both) gangster film, "The Hit" (starring John Hurt, Terrance Stamp and really young Tim Roth), do whatever you can to catch it. Not sure if it's available on DVD yet.
Here's a link for the Region1 version,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ance&s=dvd
and Region 2
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B ... 48-5381321
though this may dubbed in German.
Dirty Pretty Things is a fine understated piece of work, maybe a bit melodramatic towards the end. I had the unique experience of seeing it in an otherwise empty cinema in the Bray, a delapitated satellite town outside Dublin.
-
Boy With A Problem
- Posts: 2718
- Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2003 9:41 pm
- Location: Inside the Pocket of a Clown
bobster
I think ultimately art trumps character. You've already made your point and given many excellent examples. Especially Miles Davis. Ratting people out is almost always bad, but his films speak for themselves. Count me among "Waterfront" fans, great ensemble cast and a timeless message. Don't forget that Kazan also had a very good reputation as a theatrical director.
Where do you stand on Roman Polanski? Undeniably a very talanted director, yet a convicted (in absentia) child rapist. What of the actors that choose to work with him.
I think ultimately art trumps character. You've already made your point and given many excellent examples. Especially Miles Davis. Ratting people out is almost always bad, but his films speak for themselves. Count me among "Waterfront" fans, great ensemble cast and a timeless message. Don't forget that Kazan also had a very good reputation as a theatrical director.
Where do you stand on Roman Polanski? Undeniably a very talanted director, yet a convicted (in absentia) child rapist. What of the actors that choose to work with him.