EC and BC

[Mr. Average]

What's that expression? Opinions are like assholes - everyone's got one? I happen to think that EC has it spot on most of the time when it comes to politics. You obviously do not.

Of course, that is your opinion. But you could not have better validated my point. By what measure do I obviously not have it spot on when it comes to politics? By the WSS index? Or the conventional wisdom of the EC forum?

I think because it differs from yours. By this measure, my political view is wrong, or off target. Good thing we have these differences of opinion, don't you think? While I think BWAP also perfectly validates my point, I am glad that Reagan, (not a good actor) disagreed with conventional wisdom of the day and accepted the challenge to genuinely make a global difference. Taken holistically, his administration has as many questionable decisions as ANY. But with regards to establishing a platform for a future that was more prone to peaceable solutions than warlike alternatives, history seems to give strong kudo's and support. As far, far right as my opinion re: the War against Islamic Extremism it is to the majority here, I genuinely believe that it will produce a substrate of peace that will allow my son and daughter to enjot the same, or even richer freedoms than have I. And ensure a world where fear is not the order of the day. To the shortsighted, this is a ridiculous opinion...I understand. It is a challenge to face the brutal reality of our planet. But here it is, plain and simple. If you cannot face it, then you cannot see where this world is headed if the extremist go unchecked.

The Islamic Faith teaches, even at the non-extreme fundamental level, that the Western way of life is EVIL. As those of us who are westerners practicing our livlihood, we practice evil. We are the devil incarnate. The Islamic fundamentalist (haven't even gotten to the extremist yet) are teaching this to their children in schools throughout the middle east. Do you doubt this? If so, you are truly an ostrich with your head buried in the sand. It is a central to their daily curriculum as is mathematics and language. They are being nurtured and culivated to grow in their hate of whole populations, entire cultures, and many nationalities and principalities.

The devil incarnate MUST be eradicated in order to satisfy Allah. the ultimate satisfaction and, therefore, eternal reward ( 57 or so virgins at your beck and call) is to sacrifice life to satisfy Allah.

We can appease ourselves by thinking that if we just lay down our arms and quietly retreat, everything will change. Insurgency will cease. The Clerics will soften and become moe peaceable. They will see us as kind, benevolent little creatures and leave us alone. And world peace will follow. If you believe that...well, never mind. Clearly, most believe that. Amazing to completely ignore the brutal realities, and hug the ideologies of love and peace when even a cursory review of history demonstrate that if we do, we will never, ever be able to know the meaning of true peace in our time.

[whar]

The Islamic Faith teaches, even at the non-extreme fundamental level, that the Western way of life is EVIL. As those of us who are westerners practicing our livlihood, we practice evil. We are the devil incarnate. The Islamic fundamentalist (haven't even gotten to the extremist yet) are teaching this to their children in schools throughout the middle east. Do you doubt this? If so, you are truly an ostrich with your head buried in the sand. It is a central to their daily curriculum as is mathematics and language. They are being nurtured and culivated to grow in their hate of whole populations, entire cultures, and many nationalities and principalities.

The devil incarnate MUST be eradicated in order to satisfy Allah. the ultimate satisfaction and, therefore, eternal reward ( 57 or so virgins at your beck and call) is to sacrifice life to satisfy Allah.

Do you have any real statistics, or even sources for this?

If so, I'd like to know what percentage of Middle Eastern children are honestly being exposed to this "curriculum". I'm sure there are children being religiously seduced (all over the world, actually), but I highly doubt it is a high enough number for their grand-generation to worry about.

[whar]

I especially liked the bit of foreign policy in the Clinton administration when he blew up a pharmaceutical plant in Sudan a few weeks afetr the lewinsky scandal broke. That was awesome.

I know that story!
Noise, I understood one of your political references. This is awesome.

[Goody2Shoes]

What's that expression? Opinions are like assholes - everyone's got one? I happen to think that EC has it spot on most of the time when it comes to politics. You obviously do not.

Of course, that is your opinion. But you could not have better validated my point. By what measure do I obviously not have it spot on when it comes to politics? By the WSS index? Or the conventional wisdom of the EC forum?

Mr. Average, I think WSS meant that you obviously do not think that EC has it spot on most of the time when it comes to politics.

[Who Shot Sam?]

What's that expression? Opinions are like assholes - everyone's got one? I happen to think that EC has it spot on most of the time when it comes to politics. You obviously do not.

Of course, that is your opinion. But you could not have better validated my point. By what measure do I obviously not have it spot on when it comes to politics? By the WSS index? Or the conventional wisdom of the EC forum?

Mr. Average, I think WSS meant that you obviously do not think that EC has it spot on most of the time when it comes to politics.

Yes, that is what I was saying.

[bambooneedle]

The Islamic Faith teaches, even at the non-extreme fundamental level, that the Western way of life is EVIL. As those of us who are westerners practicing our livlihood, we practice evil.

Mr. A - What do you mean by "the Western way of life"?; that is pretty unspecific. Just because someone lives in a western country?

[Boy With A Problem]

Bamboo wrote:

Mr. A - What do you mean by "the Western way of life"?; that is pretty unspecific. Just because someone lives in a western country?

I think he means ropin' steers, bustin' broncos - tumblin' tumbleweeds - that sort of thing.

[BlueChair]

I never knew Elvis digs Clinton. And nor did I ever want to know such a fact. Not that I dislike Clinton, but you shouldn't mix great music with american politics.

Right, only Turkish politics

[Who Shot Sam?]

Bamboo wrote:

Mr. A - What do you mean by "the Western way of life"?; that is pretty unspecific. Just because someone lives in a western country?

I think he means ropin' steers, bustin' broncos - tumblin' tumbleweeds - that sort of thing.

Clearing brush.

[BlueChair]

Just to clarify, is Mr. A saying that all Muslims hate America?

[selfmademug]

No of course not. Just the faithful ones.

This whole line of thinking makes me sick, as if there are not millions of 'Western' muslims. And as if the Christian Red State thinking about homosexuality, religion, reproductive rights, etc., does not cast vast numbers of 'Westerners' as inherently evil (oh, okay, so maybe they'll be forgiven in the next world, but in this one, fuck 'em).

[bambooneedle]

Bamboo wrote:

Mr. A - What do you mean by "the Western way of life"?; that is pretty unspecific. Just because someone lives in a western country?

I think he means ropin' steers, bustin' broncos - tumblin' tumbleweeds - that sort of thing.

I heard Saddam Hussein was a big fan of John Wayne...

[Mr. Average]

No Blue, I am not saying that. And Selfmade, I definitely don't need you putting words in my mouth by making feeble attempts to interpret my meaning. The true Islamic faithful read and interpret the Koran and leave without the need or desire to eradicate all non-believers. The brutal reality that so many fail to understand is that the teaching of hate is core curriculum for lots of schools in the middle east. If there is a moral equivalency as to the teachings within US schools re: hate for muslims, then I would love to know of it. I sincerely doubt it occurs, in spite of your labeling of the Red State Christians as "evil", or at least certain members.

I think freedom is all about these Red State Dumbasses having the ability to adopt whatever opinion that they feel aligns with the mores, customs, and experiences of their families, their ancestors, and their process of socialization within a free nation. Clearly, you disagree. But I don't label you as evil, unless you choose to use your rhetoric to try to dismantle the fabric of this, a great nation. When you start to label large contingents of people who don't think like you do as "evil", then you have lost any concept of what it means to be free to think for oneself.

Talk about the enemy within.

It is evident, based on the responses, that the brutal realities are not being confronted by many of you.

Blue, they aren't being taught to be so selective as to target only Americans. Unfortnately, they see the Canadian and British lifestyle to be equally reprehensible. I see now that the liberal mindset simply will not allow this kind of thinking.

Folks, this isn't just a niche, fringe element of the Islamic Faith. It is bigger than that. Unfortunately, it is assumed that if we stick our head in the sand and wish it were not real, it will go away.

[selfmademug]

...as if the Christian Red State thinking about homosexuality, religion, reproductive rights, etc., does not cast vast numbers of 'Westerners' as inherently evil

It's a shame how poor some people's reading skills are.

For the record, I (in my liberal mindset) am utterly terrified of (to say nothing of offended by) the extremist-- facist, really-- Muslim element that is strong-arming and indoctrinating so many people in some areas of the world. But I am still more terrified that the epicenter of this extremism is our so-called ally, Saudi Arabia, the nation that gave us most of the 9/11 hijackers, incidentally, and that we seem to be doing exactly nothing about it.

[Richard]

I am sorry to digress from this stellar debate on religion & it's free pass to hate your neighbour more than he hates you.
But the beginnings of this thread brought up some interesting ideas about music & politics & how little or great there influence can be when combined.
I am not referring to the gut-ache you may have gotten when you read Paul Weller of the Jam promising to vote for Margaret Thatcher all those years ago or Neil Young declaring his devotion to Ronald Reagan in the 80s. (I know they both recanted, but still) Or everytime Billy Bragg plays your town, where ever it is in the world, how he always announces his support or disgust for some local issue, even though he blew in the night before.

I mean the music. How many truly great protest or political songs are there. Are any of them capable of creating a convincing argument over their three minutes? Or is it enough just to have the already believers singing 'We shall overcome'?
I never really liked Tramp The Dirt Down by Elvis or Margaret On A Guillotine by Morrissey. But I loved & still love Stand Down Margaret by The Beat?

So what are your favorites & why?

Ok, so this should probably have been new thread.

[BlueChair]

Bob Dylan's "Masters Of War" is chillingly relevant in 2005,

[Extreme Honey]

You talk of extremist muslims and the such but the only ones in the world who go around destroying things as they see fit and blasting the heads off so called "Extremists" are the americans (and this isn't my radical views, it' a fact, compare the numbers between american "executions" and extremist attacks [and take note America hasn't lived 1/8 of the time Islam has been on Earth]). Terrorism is controlled by freaks who happen to be muslim, but that dosn't give anyone the right to hate the common muslim man, who did notihng at all to deserve the death he just got in Fallujah.

[Who Shot Sam?]

I am sorry to digress from this stellar debate on religion & it's free pass to hate your neighbour more than he hates you.
But the beginnings of this thread brought up some interesting ideas about music & politics & how little or great there influence can be when combined.
I am not referring to the gut-ache you may have gotten when you read Paul Weller of the Jam promising to vote for Margaret Thatcher all those years ago or Neil Young declaring his devotion to Ronald Reagan in the 80s. (I know they both recanted, but still) Or everytime Billy Bragg plays your town, where ever it is in the world, how he always announces his support or disgust for some local issue, even though he blew in the night before.

I mean the music. How many truly great protest or political songs are there. Are any of them capable of creating a convincing argument over their three minutes? Or is it enough just to have the already believers singing 'We shall overcome'?
I never really liked Tramp The Dirt Down by Elvis or Margaret On A Guillotine by Morrissey. But I loved & still love Stand Down Margaret by The Beat?

So what are your favorites & why?

Ok, so this should probably have been new thread.

I'm currently listening to Fela Kuti's "Zombie", a pretty scathing indictment of the Nigerian military that is also as funky as hell, a nice combination. This song took some balls.

Zombie won't go unless you tell him to go
Zombie won't stop unless you tell him to stop

[Mr. Average]

Extreme Honey...I missed the part where anyone anywhere in this thread said anything about hating the common Muslim man. Can you point this out?

And for the record, SMM, I genuinely believe that you want, more than anything in this world (or the next...) to see your child grow up with more opportunity and happiness than you have. And I truly believe that you love and value the freedoms of this country. The difference is in ideology...you consider me a hateful whackjob and I consider you a typical liberal who espouses great ideology devoid of any substance on how to make the idea a reality. Spiteful commentary and peace signs and rallies someone just don't get the job done. It is part demographics, to be sure. And certain a big part is socialization. But when you make the global statement that typifies Red Staters as, effectively, hateful mean people, then you reveal a prejudice that is just too much. We cannot all live in Boston, and have educational and work experience in Ivy League environments.

But give me an honest, sincere, person who makes the most out of his/her blessings every single day before you celebrate the higher intellect of an educated ideologue who has decided that a persons core values and views on homosexuality, religion, and reproductive rights (There Is Only One Master of Life and Death) categorize them as hateful people.

[Richard]

Masters Of War is a great choice Bluechair. Thanks for reminding me.

I have heard Fela Kuti's name but never heard any. Is Zombie a good place to start WSS?

[Who Shot Sam?]

Masters Of War is a great choice Bluechair. Thanks for reminding me.

I have heard Fela Kuti's name but never heard any. Is Zombie a good place to start WSS?

It's a great live album. Sort of an Afrobeat touchstone, as he was a big infleunce for an entire generation of musicians, not only in Nigeria, but all over West Africa. Expensive Shit is also quite good.

He led a very strange life - was involved in the Black Power movement, then started his own commune when he returned to Nigeria, which was under constant harassment by the military government. He also practiced polygamy and died of AIDS in the late 1990s.

I know I've said it elsewhere, but there is so much interesting music available now from the '60s and '70s in Africa, much of it reclamation projects. Fela's albums have always been available, but the Éthiopiques series and the Ghana Soundz discs, for example, deserve to be more widely heard - it's joyous music that unfortunately isn't given its due outside of "World Music" specialty programs.

[verena]

WSS, I think the outlook is changing.

I have seen a "World Music" department in various stores of several countries (oftentimes together with "New Age"). More and more people go look in there, and I bought quite a few cds. Discovered very good contemporary music from Africa & India notably.

[selfmademug]

Funny, I don't remember writing anything about peace signs or rallies (not that they are in any way the same thing). I do recall writing something critical of Saudi Arabia and our relationship to it. And I continue to be offended by, and very scared of, the vast degree to which hate-- in the form of fear-mongered homophobia and fundamentalist Christian exclusion-- drove the last elections. I've already gone on record as saying I will not debate specifics with certain people on this board, not because I think they are hateful whackjobs, but because I think they're idiotic tautologists. Suffice it to say I try to follow the public debates of experts as best I can, espcially those that focus on what actions should be taken, as I am a realist and a practical person, and form my opinions accordingly.

I will be very, VERY lucky if I can give my son anything like the same opportunites I received, which were many, and I could easily wax political about the prosperity and health given to us by the GI Bill and other social programs of the sort that this country has now come to malign. I work a job for an hourly wage, not a salary, protecting other workers who do the same, as a way of improving the working lives of people in general. I work to get them good health insurance, pensions, training, and work security and I do it under an increasingly successful and popular philosophy of collaboration with all parties concerned. It doesn't always work but it's the contribution I am best able to make. Perhaps that is what is meant by "typical liberal espousing great ideology devoid of any substance on how to make the idea a reality."

I do think a discussion about music and politics would be a good one for the annex. As Edwyn Collins sang, "Too many protest singers, not enough protest songs."

[Richard]

Thanks for the words on Fela WSS. I shall certainly make an effort to broaden my own musical horizons.

More suited for the Annex. Noted SMM - thanks.

[johnfoyle]

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20051003&s=crowley100305

The New Republic

BILL CLINTON, MESSIAH.

Second Coming
by Michael Crowley


Post date 09.27.05 | Issue date 10.03.05

( extract)

New York, New York

It was almost midnight at the Manhattan sushi hotspot Nobu Fifty Seven, and Bill Clinton was briefing Elvis Costello on the future of New Orleans. "First you've got to flush the lake. Just flush it," Clinton explained. Between the low thrum of club music and the starstruck admirers jockeying for position, it was impossible to hear much more, but one thing was clear: Clinton was really enjoying himself. As several celebrities--including Jeremy Piven of HBO's "Entourage," millionaire playboy Steve Bing, and the dapper Nobu himself--hovered on the margins, Clinton talked on ... and on ... and on. A few minutes earlier, Costello had looked starstruck himself. But now, his enthusiasm seemed to be waning. In fact, as Clinton droned on, I detected a certain glaze forming behind the smartly dressed rocker's famous black-rimmed glasses.

If Clinton noticed, he didn't care. These are the moments he lives for. This was the first evening of the Clinton Global Initiative--a sprawling three-day extravaganza that was equal parts Davos, Renaissance Weekend, charitable telethon, and self-celebration. The stated purpose of the conference was to bring together top thinkers and leaders from public and private life to help devise solutions to intractable world problems. But, most of all, this was the Bill Clinton show--a chance for the ex-president to talk an endless number of hapless (though often rich and famous) souls like Costello blue in the face.