pophead2k wrote:
I don't read the song as John advocating anyone to do anything, other than imagine what the world could have been like without possessions, religions, etc. The call is to 'imagine', not to give away your things or turn your back on religion per se. When I think of Imagine, I think of possibilities untapped, not a behavioral tract. But that's just me. And Happy Xmas, but war isn't over (even if I want it)!
Yeah, but he says, "I hope one day you'll join us, and the world will live as one." It may be about untapped possibilities, but it's clearly something he wishes everyone would do. And I'm just saying it's easy to say "Give it all away," when you yourself have no intention of doing so.
And war IS over. Somebody just needs to tell the dickheads in charge.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
--William Shakespeare
On Imagine (a song I dislike), I think people have been a little unfair to John. Understood, that if taken literally the song comes across as hypocritical, but why are we taking the song literally? EC in particular should be taken to task for implying that a millionaire can't write a song that contains idealistic lyrics. Hasn't EC repeatedly asked that people NOT judge his songs literally, or look for messages in them? Hasn't he said that his songs can be different things to different people? So why is he applying a different approach to Imagine? Why is he associating the song with the writer's individual circumstances? Does that mean that every EC song should be judged in relation to EC's individual circumstances?
I agree with Pophead's take: John is wistfully (I like that word) asking listeners not otherwise enthralled with the pretty piano melody to "imagine" certain things, and then "join" the proverbial "us" (he and the yokester perhaps) in "imagining" those things, not in actually "living" those things out. He was far too smart and media conscious not to understand, even in the midst of substantial pot haze that probably engulfed him as he penned the lyrics, that unless he used the "imagine" concept, cynics like EC would jump all over his millionaire ass with accusations of hypocrisy. And in any case, why does an artist's personal life have to be consistent with his art? Marx was personally venal but honestly dedicated his life to what he thought would help the "common" man. It's the work that counts. This reminds me of a shitty book that Paul Johnson wrote where he took all kinds of "liberal" intellectuals to task(Rousseau, Marx, and Edmund Wilson are three I remember) by dissecting their personal lives and then claiming their philosophies should be disregarded because they did not live by them. Nonsense. Bad people can create and disseminate worthy ideas.
By the way, let's also remember that the song was written at a time when folks like Lenon were writing, chanting, humming, and meditating like madmen about idealistic shit like this. Agreed that if the song were written in the late 70s, 80s, 90s or today the laughter would overwhelm the sentiments.
I learned today that the Romans used to say "Bless you" when people sneezed.
I always thought EC was being a bit "over zealous" picking on this song myself. I mean its obviously a very very idealistic song, which, as has been pointed out, is very easy to pick apart, but I think thats missing the point. And I think Lennon understood the answer is not in giving it all away as such, that doesnt really help anyone in the long term, its about trying to change the way people think about things like the sharing of money and power, and is about as much as a song can hope to do. In that way I think its a great song.
echos myron like a siren
with endurance like the liberty bell
and he tells you of the dreamers
but he's cracked up like the road
and he'd like to lift us up, but we're a very heavy load
The song is called "Imagine" not "this absolute truth". (This was first pointed out to me, more or less, by Gordon Jump's character on "WKRP in Cinncinatti", confronting a Jerry Fallwell stand-in....)
Don't care what EC says, at certain times, this is probably my second favorite peacenik/secular-humanist anthem, right after PL&U.
I'm not going to try to Grinch everyone's love for this song. I'm just saying that I think it's a little manipulative and not entirely honest. Plus, I don't think all his imaginings are that pleasant. But, hey, that's just me.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
--William Shakespeare
I just found this in The Globe & Mail, a national Canadian newspaper.
Christmas doesn't need defending
Calling it a 'holiday tree' won't kill the season and may even promote tolerance.
By MARIA KUBACKI
Thursday, December 22, 2005 Page A22
Okay, it's a Christmas tree, not a holiday tree. But enough already about how the culture and traditions of the majority are in danger of being suppressed by the dark forces of political correctness. Christmas is not about to disappear just because of some clumsy attempts to acknowledge that it isn't the only holiday.
There's something ridiculous -- and quintessentially Canadian -- about over-zealous public officials trying to please everyone by substituting a generic and inoffensive term for something we all know by another name. But the appropriate response is mirth, not moral outrage.
I'd never really noticed it until a friend pointed it out, but my children's public school's Best of the Season event is a multicultural rather than an exclusively Christmas celebration and features "holiday helpers" rather than elves. I don't know if gestures like this do much to help immigrants and other minorities overcome the barriers they face. They may only irritate Christian traditionalists.
I still think a Christmas tree is Christmas tree and an elf is an elf. But the more I read about the unofficial campaign to take back Christmas, the more uncomfortable I am with all this railing against "political correctness" and the more I think there are worse things than bland politeness.
As an immigrant who grew up in a small town in the pre-politically correct 1970s and 1980s, I remember how badly I wanted to fit in -- so badly that I would laugh louder than everyone else at Polish jokes and refused to speak Polish for many years.
I desperately wanted our Christmas to be like everybody else's and studied the details in order to replicate them at home: I wanted the same decorations on the tree, the same Christmas carols, the same food.
The pressure to conform came from within, but also from without. Canada in those days welcomed immigrants as it does today, but newcomers were expected to blend in. A different cultural background was something to overcome rather than to celebrate.
I've never experienced outright discrimination -- I've never been denied work or membership in a club or association because of my background.
But since it's not immediately apparent that I'm not from here -- I'm white and I speak English without an accent -- I've sometimes had the unwelcome opportunity to hear first-hand what some Canadians (I'm sure they're a minority) really think about foreigners. I've heard comments about people being "fresh off the boat" and rants about how immigrants are taking jobs away from Canadians.
My parents -- who do speak with an accent but nevertheless are proud Canadians -- have sometimes rubbed up against more direct insults. But the occasional ethnic slur is nothing compared to what immigrants and other minorities, such as Jews, were subjected to a few generations ago -- and what aboriginal Canadians and visible minorities from non-Western (particularly Muslim) countries sometimes experience today.
If political correctness means greater tolerance and openness, I'm all for it, no matter how stupid it gets sometimes -- even if at this stage it means that well-intentioned people sometimes go overboard and call a Christmas tree a holiday tree, as a spokesperson for Rideau Hall did recently. (Governor-General Michaëlle Jean promptly stepped in and said no, it was a Christmas tree after all.)
As far as the Christmas-versus-holiday dilemma, there's a simple solution. It would cost nothing for public officials and businesses to wish people both a Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays, in recognition of those who celebrate Hanukkah and those whose major religious holidays take place earlier in the year, as well as those who don't follow any religion and just want to eat, drink and be merry.
Anyway, as anyone who's been to a mall in the last couple of months knows, Christmas doesn't need defending. Santa's been posing for pictures since the middle of November, Christmas decorations have been on display since Halloween, and there's no shortage of Christmas cards -- with or without Baby Jesus.
It's pretty hard to kill a holiday that features a baby as a symbol of hope for the future, as well as turkey, presents and liquor flowing freely. Winter would be kind of bleak without it. And don't worry -- should our Christmas spirit falter, retailers will bombard us with advertising to revive it.
I was raised as a Roman Catholic and I love Christmas. I even go to Christmas Eve mass as part of our family's tradition. But we live in a modern, secular society. It's nobody's business whether I believe Jesus is the reason for the season, or I think Christmas is a good excuse to drink too much eggnog and spoil my kids with presents -- or I ignore Christmas altogether. I'm glad our public institutions are a little cautious when it comes to acknowledging a holiday that some celebrate by praying, others by shopping, and still others don't celebrate at all.
I'm grateful to live in a country that upholds the separation of church and state, whose public schools teach children that their worldview is not necessarily shared by all.
The other day my 4 ½-year-old son came home singing a little Hanukkah song he'd just learned. The next minute he launched into Jingle Bells. To recognize other traditions doesn't spoil Christmas for him. Nor should it for the rest of us.
Maria Kubacki lives in Ottawa.
This morning you've got time for a hot, home-cooked breakfast! Delicious and piping hot in only 3 microwave minutes.
It's funny - my little guy had a kwanzaa celebration yesterday at his daycare center and had a blast - African food, drumming (always a hit with 3-year old boys), dancers. My daughter was given a dreidel by her best friend at school (she's got a thing for Jewish guys). I think it's great to see them being exposed to other traditions.
It's pretty common here in Huntsville to be exposed to so many other ethnic backgrounds and faiths because there is such a melting pot of people here. I don't know that my kids have any prejudices against anyone because they have - since daycare - been with all kinds of kids who wear all kinds of clothes, celebrate many religions and different traditions. They don't just have kids in their classrooms with names like Tammy and John, but names like Sheeha and Ijeoma as well.
I once had a handful of friends from North Carolina who insisted on calling the kind of wooly hat one wears in winter a "toboggan". The hell? I figured they were just confused, poor snow-deprived people, but it turns out that that word can refer both to a sled AND a hat. I wonder which came first?
They call those hats toboggans in Texas too. Drives me crazy. I had a real toboggan as a kid. That was in Baltimore. Here there aren't any hills, much less enough snow.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
--William Shakespeare
toboggan:
"long, flat-bottomed sled," 1829, from Canadian Fr. tabagane, from Algonquian (probably Micmac) tobakun "a sled." The verb is recorded from 1846. As Amer.Eng. colloquial for a type of long woolen cap, it is recorded from 1929 (earlier toboggan cap, 1928), presumably because one wore such a cap while tobogganing.
Umm.... 'hats'? Not terribly specific, so maybe y'all have a point! Sometimes 'ski cap' though that's usually the balaclava type with the cutouts for eyes; or 'watchcap,' though there again that's something quite specific.
You'd think so. But non-french Canadians say it too. In fact, when the Toronto police were on a non-strike a month or so ago, one of the big things was that they were going to wear toques instead of their uniform police caps. Why this was considered such a big deal, I'll never understand.
I've been saying "toque" since I first heard Bob and Doug Mackenzie's "12 Days of Christmas" - Has Ottowa made this the official Christmas anthem of Canada?
Ok, on the first day of Christmas, my true love gave to me..
beer.
On the 2nd day of Christmas, my true love gave to me...
2 turtlenecks,
and beer.
On the 3rd day of Christmas, my true love gave to me..
3 french toast,
2 turtlenecks,
and beer.
There should be more there, eh?
Where?
On the 4th day of Christmas, my true love gave to me..
4lbs of backbacon,
3 french toast,
2 turtlenecks,
and beer in a tree.
Oh. See? ya need more.
On the 5th day of Christmas, my true love gave to me..
5 GOLDEN TOQUES!
4lbs of backbacon,
3 french toast,
2 turtlenecks,
and beer in a tree.
On the 6th day of Christmas, my true love gave to me..
6 packs of two-four.
5 GOLDEN TOQUES!
4lbs of backbacon,
3 french toast,
2 turtlenecks,
and beer in a tree.
Ok.
On the 7th day of Christmas, my true love gave to me..
7 packs of smokes,
6 packs of two-four,
5 GOLDEN TOQUES!
4lbs of backbacon,
3 french toast,
2 turtlenecks,
and beer in a tree.
oh, i keep forgettin'.
whew, this should be just the 2 days of xmas, this is too hard for us!
On the 8th day of Christmas, my true love gave to me..
8 comic books,
7 packs of smokes,
6 packs of two-four,
5 GOLDEN TOQUES!
4lbs of backbacon,
3 french toast,
2 turtlenecks,
and beer in a tree.
Wow,That beers empty
Day 12.
G'day and welcome to day 12.
Yeah.
5 GOLDEN TOQUES!
4lbs of backbacon,
3 french toast,
2 turtlenecks,
and beer in a tre-e.
Where did you learn to do that?
Uh, Albums.
Boy, so thats our song merry Christmas, and g'day.
G'day everybody. Happy new years.
Ok, ya know what ya left out?
What?
Donuts. I told you to get me donuts.
Oh no!
Either on the 9th day, or the 10th day or the 11th day. I wanted donuts.
The song is over merry Christmas everybody, or the 12th you coulda gotten me a dozen donuts.
Everyone just needs to fuckin’ relax. Smoke more weed, the world is ending.
Not terribly specific, so maybe y'all have a point! Sometimes 'ski cap' though that's usually the balaclava type with the cutouts for eyes; or 'watchcap,' though there again that's something quite specific.
