noiseradio wrote:Bambooneedle,
How is it not antagonistic to suggest that my God might be a freak?
How when we have a sense of humour. The thread was getting heavy, so I threw in "So was Jesus a freak?" for some light relief. Antagonistic!? Gimme a break. I was disappointed that you didn't show more trust... we both have been around for a while, and there's never been a problem.
Not really, and no need to apologize - you can have your say, as long as I can have mine and so can anybody else.noiseradio wrote:By the way, I agree that statements like "there's only one master of life and death" are sanctimonious at best and dismissive at worst. That's why I don't go around making them. I did say the bit about knowing God, and evidently it was taken in the same sort of way. I apologize for that.
Whether you may have misunderstood what I meant or not is not really the point. No-one has to agree with me. And, I can't control the extent of people's reactions if they don't like something I say. I may react about things privately, but I don't try to hold anyone (let alone a message board) responsible for the extent of my emotional reactions. This shouldn't be about special reverence for some politics or creeds in particular but more about allowing for a diversity.noiseradio wrote:I was only reacting to being told by you that people who believed doubted deep down and that knowledge was superior to belief. If I misunderstood what you meant, I again apologize. But between that and asking if Jesus was a freak, I think I was probably on the right track in my understanding
------------------------
Here's how it went (no-one has to read, so don't blame me if you start yawning):
A Rope Leash:
<0:
Relevance is in the mind of the beholder. I guess if a person thinks they're going to Heaven, then mankind and the planet they live on mean nothing.
So, why don't we just blow the whole thing up in one big nuclear suicide explosion?
Doubt, that's why. If I really thought God and Heaven existed, I'd hasten my end for sure. The realist perspective would be that all those people who have died really are dead, and those we killed we really did kill.
We killed them dead. We should feel awful about that, and not make up stories about a fantastic afterlife just to make ourselves feel better about our sickening ways.
bambooneedle:
That's right, if you only believe something, as opposed to knowing it, you necessarily doubt it. It's our Judeo-Christian masochistic cultural and psychological heritage to want to believe in the unbelievable and at the same time doubt it though. Growing up as a Catholic and being sent to a Christian Brothers school, I can say that even then I never really believed in God, even though I thought I did. Of course, you have to acknowledge that the unknown is vast.
As for Jacko, what was that saying about casting the first stone? No-one really knows if and how guilty he is. He does seem to be one of those guys that looks like he's lying even when he's telling the truth, though.
noiseradio:
I don't believe in God. I know God.
bambooneedle:
So do I, cos I'm him... but only if either everything is God or nothing is God.
LessThanZero:
A rope leash wrote:
I guess if a person thinks they're going to Heaven, then mankind and the planet they live on mean nothing.
Well, if we show love to mankind and the planet, we're working with God. If we persevere through the crap, we're developing our character, which gives unfailing hope towards our eternal purpose right?
What's so funny 'bout peace, love & understanding?
ROPE, you'll love this old testament GWB reference!:
4 "See, he is puffed up;
his desires are not upright-
but the righteous will live by his faith [4] -
5 indeed, wine betrays him;
he is arrogant and never at rest.
Because he is as greedy as the grave [5]
and like death is never satisfied,
he gathers to himself all the nations
and takes captive all the peoples.
6 "Will not all of them taunt him with ridicule and scorn, saying,
" 'Woe to him who piles up stolen goods
and makes himself wealthy by extortion!
How long must this go on?'
7 Will not your debtors [6] suddenly arise?
Will they not wake up and make you tremble?
Then you will become their victim.
8 Because you have plundered many nations,
the peoples who are left will plunder you.
For you have shed man's blood;
you have destroyed lands and cities and everyone in them.
9 "Woe to him who builds his realm by unjust gain
to set his nest on high,
to escape the clutches of ruin!
10 You have plotted the ruin of many peoples,
shaming your own house and forfeiting your life.
11 The stones of the wall will cry out,
and the beams of the woodwork will echo it.
12 "Woe to him who builds a city with bloodshed
and establishes a town by crime!
13 Has not the LORD Almighty determined
that the people's labor is only fuel for the fire,
that the nations exhaust themselves for nothing?
14 For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD ,
as the waters cover the sea.
15 "Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbors,
pouring it from the wineskin till they are drunk,
so that he can gaze on their naked bodies.
16 You will be filled with shame instead of glory.
Now it is your turn! Drink and be exposed [7] !
The cup from the LORD's right hand is coming around to you,
and disgrace will cover your glory.
17 The violence you have done to Lebanon will overwhelm you,
and your destruction of animals will terrify you.
For you have shed man's blood;
you have destroyed lands and cities and everyone in them.
A rope leash:
Well, those words are comforting...
I must say that when Noise (and for that matter <0) says that he knows God that I must take him at his word. As I am only able to be in my mind and not his, I must assume that the God he speaks of really is God, and not some product of the mind acquired through indoctrination, or worse, some other force posing as God. Since all of the evidence of genuineness resides within Noise, then it must be assumed that Noise is not bullshitting one little bit. He really does know God, and God has proven to Noise that the God he knows is actually God, and not something else.
So, it cannot be questioned, except from the position of my mind, which does not know God. I was not indoctrinated as a child, and my attempts to seek God are quelled almost immediately by what I've come to know as common sense, which may be percieved by others as evil spirits.
One thing I do know (and I admit I know this through youthful "experimentation" with psychoactive substances), is that the human mind is capable of the most amazing things, and apparently, the average person uses very little of the mind's capabilities.
It doesn't bother me that I cannot see God. What I can see is the crazy shit that some people who do see God get involved with: deception, avarice, war, discrimination, hatred, ect. We all know it's true.
I'd really rather not be associated with it. They sent my brother to Hell, some of them, in their minds, anyway...
laughingcrow:
Apparently Iraq are going to invade America, and strategically remove Michael Jackson from his influential media position. They are saying neverland has 'weapons of gigantic destruction', and have backed it all up by showing some grainy super-8 footage of Michael Jackson is a giant white nuclear Transformer, accompanied by his legions of anthrax-chimps. According to some kindergarten kids who did a crayon picture that has been incorporated into the Iraqi war dossier, the first attack will be a suicide bombing of Basra committed by the skeleton of John Merrick the Elephant Man.
Many Iraqi fans of Jackson have taken to the streets in protest.
noiseradio:
What I continue to resent the hell out of is this assumption that those who know and believe in God are deluded intellectually. That if we would only give ourselves over to reason that we would recognize that there is nothing beyond this mortal coil. I've never tried to foist my beliefs on anyone here. I've never tried to convert anyone or insist that anyone was wrong. Rope, I never sent your brother to hell. Not in my mind or anywhere else. I'm truly sorry that some other assholes have given you such grief. But I'm not one of them. I don't think any of the believers who regularly contibute to this board are among those assholes either. Nevertheless, you and others continually call our intelligence into question. Your invective and vitriol are neverending. And you're welcome to spew. But I am tired of the smarmy comments and open statements of how dumb I must be to continue to recognize God.
You're quite right that I was indoctrinated as a child. But the God I know is nothing at all like the one I was told about growing up. The God I know I experience tangibly. He's not an apparition in my mind. He fills up my senses. It would be intellectually dishonest for me to pretend I don't know him.
While I have no interest in debates over whether or not God exists, I am not going to sit idly by and let people continually denigrate those on the board who prefess some sort of faith. There are too often elements of bigotry cast towards those who believe on this board. Among a group of people as intelligent as this one obviously is, there is no place for that. And if we can't discuss topics of faith without insulting one another, we ought not discuss them.
BlueChair:
Exactly. People who practice bigotry towards people who are religious is just as bad as people who are religious who practice bigotry towards atheists.
Everyday People
Sly and The Family Stone
Sometimes I'm right and I can be wrong
My own beliefs are in my song
The butcher, the banker, the drummer and then
Makes no difference what group I'm in
I am everyday people, yeah yeah
There is a blue one who can't accept the green one
For living with a fat one trying to be a skinny one
And different strokes for different folks
And so on and so on and scooby dooby doo-bee
Oh sha sha - we got to live together
I am no better and neither are you
We are the same whatever we do
You love me you hate me you know me and then
You can't figure out the bag l'm in
I am everyday people, yeah yeah
There is a long hair that doesn't like the short hair
For bein' such a rich one that will not help the poor one
And different strokes for different folks
And so on and so on and scooby dooby doo-bee
Oh sha sha-we got to live together
There is a yellow one that won't accept the black one
That won't accept the red one that won't accept the white one
And different strokes for different folks
(C) 1968 by Daly city Music
A rope leash:
Believe it or not, not to long ago in this very same country, people who said they saw God, or talked to God, or knew God were considered to be rather looney, even ordinary churchgoers who professed such realities. Nowdays, the faithful wear it like a badge of honor.
Now, if you read it, you'll see that I never said anyone was dumb. In fact, I said your beliefs cannot be questioned, because it is inside you and there is no hard evidence that can be garnered and brought forth to prove it to another person. I also stated very clearly that it is just "some" believers that use their beliefs for ornerous purposes.
I'm sorry you take it personally, Noise, but you can't say you "know" God and not expect folks to look at that statement with a bit of curious suspicion. I know you're smart, that's obvious. But you're doing what many Christians do when their faith is called into question: You're acting as if you are being persecuted, when in fact you are only being challenged.
The fact remains that I do not start fights or wars, or condemn others for what they are. Sure, I question others, and discriminate among which folks I might associate with, but I never say they are going to "Hell", or coming back as bacteria. It simply isn't true. But, Christians do (maybe not you), Muslims do, Jews do, and the list goes on, even Hinduism relies on such separations.
If you're gong to align yourself with people who hold such "truths", then you're going to have to expect that others will question them. I don't know what church you attend, Noise, but I'll bet that if you were to question some of the tenets that you might be surprised at what lies beneathe the weekly rhetoric. You can't tell me that Christianity does not condemn homosexuality, and aetheism. It also condemns those that believe in "other" Gods. That's just the short list.
So, I'm bigoted against the bigots. I'm good with that. I'm not starting wars, it's those who think they have another life coming that are.
Now, I've tried to leave before because I'm a bit tired of offending people with what I am, but I was asked to stay by more than one, and even by you, Noise. The fact of the matter is that I won't shut up; that, since 911, I vowed to never again let religious types have a free ride on what they believe. Sure, you've got a right to believe any crazy thing you want. The problem is that you don't have a reasonable, testable argument to counter mine, but you still insist that what you say is true, that God exists, and you know him, and that's that, and anyone who denies or challenges it is out to get you.
Indoctrination sounds awful but there's no shame in it when it happens to almost everyone. I surely don't hold it against you, I just want you to see the damage that is done when people chose to not question what is fed to them from a young age, and then go blindly along with the herd. You can say you know God all you want, but you can't show me God, can you? So why get upset when someone calls you on the matter?
I really am tired of offending people by simply talking about what I feel is common sense, so, if you don't mind, I'll take my leave of the board, and give it up to the people who already run everything else in the world, those who believe in "God". On this board, I'd say that's about eighty percent, so I'm sure Elvis will be quite impressed when he looks in and sees that everyone is so reverent in their beliefs, just like he is.
Ta-ta, ya'll!
King Of Confidence:
Long time no post here, and I may regret this, but -- I thought Rope's remarks raised a fair point of epistemology, namely -- how CAN anyone outside of the mind of the claimant to "know God" verify the truth of the claimant's experience? It's impossible to rationally give assent to the claim, because one is completely outside of the mind experience of the claimant. Given one's own assumptions and experience -- say, with mushrooms, and a condemned brother, and observation of the general insanity that some (not all) religious belief is generating in the world today -- one would be expected to bring those to bear in assessing someone who claims to know God.
Whether Rope was being smarmy or vitriolic (I didn't detect it, at least in comparison to other of his posts ), it's a legit response to someone who claims to know God to say "it's either true, or there are other explanations." It seems to me to be the ONLY rational response, whether one is a believer or not.
bambooneedle:
So was Jesus a freak?
----------and that's the last I saw-------------
As far as I can see, nothing worth deleting or batting an eyelid over up to this point. What's wrong with being a freak anyway? I hear he wasn't ordinary, and that he stood up for all sorts of freaks.